Legacy In Action

In this special episode of The North Star, the mic gets turned around as Executive Director JeffriAnne Wilder, Ph.D., takes the guest seat, interviewed by Changemakers fellow Chloe Caldwell.

JeffriAnne reflects on what it means to carry Oberlin's almost 200-year legacy of inclusion into the present, pushing back on resting on historical laurels and asking what the college is doing right now to honor that legacy. She opens up about the tensions she's navigated between motherhood and academia, the importance of disrupting hierarchy to build true belonging, and why she believes Oberlin's legacy comes most alive through its students.

Candid and wide-ranging, the conversation closes with a rallying call to the next generation: trust your gut, don't wait until you feel ready, and know that leadership isn't a title reserved for a certain age. It's something happening all around us, every single day. 

🔗 Find out more about Dr. JeffriAnne Wilder.
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🌎 Visit Oberlin College's website.

Podcast Produced by: Paradigm Media Group

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome back to the North Star, a space for candid conversations on leadership, equity, and justice. This season, we highlight the people and practices shaping Oberlin's 200-year legacy of inclusion, justice, and excellence. Today's guest is Dr. Jeffrey Ann Wilder. Dr. Wilder is a sociologist, a scholar, and a leader at Oberlin College, where she serves as the executive director of the Center for DEI Innovation and Leadership and the host of the North Star podcast. Her work explores issues of race, gender, colorism, and identity, and she is committed to advancing equity and inclusive excellence within higher education. As someone who has had the privilege of studying under and working with Dr. Wilder as a student fellow at the center, I've seen firsthand how she brings Oberlin's values of justice, access, and community into action through both scholarship and leadership. Welcome, Dr. Wilder. Thank you, Chloe.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

It is so nice to have this shoe on the other foot today.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

I know it's so wonderful. I get I get the experience of interviewing you after you interviewed me. It's such an exciting experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yes, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Okay.

Oberlin Legacy And Responsibility

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Well, to kick things off, um, let's start diving into your personal connection to Oberlin's legacy. So beginning off, Oberlin has a long history of challenging conventions around equity, access, and education. So what does that legacy mean to you personally as both a scholar and as a leader here?

SPEAKER_00 1:37

So I have to say it's a it's a really great privilege, um, but also it is a it's also a really great responsibility, especially now. So, you know, I think you know everyone knows about Oberlin's history, right? Being the first college in America to open its doors to um women and also people of color. And the fact that it's 2026, being able to do this work right now, it is an incredible privilege. And as a sociologist who has been studying issues of race and gender specifically for folks of color and women of color within an educational context, it really is a great privilege to be able to do this work and to have been able to come to Oberlin two years ago to launch this center really is a great privilege. Um, it's also a responsibility, right? We have a responsibility now not to necessarily rest on those laurels because a lot of times I think that is sort of the downside of this history, right? People get really excited about that history point, that data point, what we did back in the 1830s, but that's 200 years ago. What are we doing now? And as Janet Jackson so eloquently stated in her song back in the 1980s, what have you done for me lately? So it's important for us to think about how we're going to step into that next generation of our legacy. What is that next iteration of the legacy look like? How are we going to stand in the promise of our legacy today? So, what does that look like for us right now, especially given the fact that not many institutions have the wonderful privilege to do the work that we're doing? And so it really means a great deal to A, still be able to do that work in 2026, and also to be able to do this work at such a storied institution as Oberlin.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. So, speaking on that legacy, how do you see that historic legacy really come alive with the work that's happening currently?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I'm

Students Make The Legacy Real

SPEAKER_00 4:01

looking at that legacy right now and you. So through the students, I mean, there really is no other way to look at that legacy other than through the students. I think we could, you know, sit and talk about, oh, through my scholarship or through this or through that. But that really that that falls short. I think seeing the legacy today and where it comes the most alive, I feel like, you know, I mentioned a few months ago when we were at President Carmen M. Bar's house for our Changemakers Fellows lunch. We all had the opportunity to go to the residence, and you know, our Changemakers Fellows came to the President's house for lunch, and we all convened there to hear about her leadership story. And I was sharing that having the opportunity to run this center, but also launched a change makers fellowship really made my experience at Oberlin come to life. It moved my work at Oberlin from really black and white to color because seeing the work come alive through the students is really where it matters the most, right? I've been doing this work for a long time. And the thing where I find the most satisfaction, the most fulfillment is through students, because you know, as a sociologist, you get really, really excited about helping people to see and to understand our world, our social world through a sociological lens. And so that becomes an extension of teaching and through students. And so it is truly exciting to see one generation after another, not like I've seen that many generations in my younger age, but to see student after student and to see how students get introduced to not only sociology, but to see how students react to what's happening in real time to our world is truly just it never gets old, right? And so to have students, to have you all responding to what's happening to our world, that is where it matters the most.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

That's such an interesting perspective. I feel like I've always had it in my head that I'm learning from you. I'm working under you, I'm here in college to learn from you. And you're flipping that on its head a little bit and saying that you're also learning from us and our presence. So looking deeper into that, what do you think is the biggest thing that you've learned from the students that you work with or from working with students in general throughout your career?

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah. So, you know, when I was a doctoral student and I was on the pathway to getting my PhD and as a younger pre-tenured professor, I definitely led with my ego, for sure. Uh it it it seems a little, it may feel a little hard to imagine, right? But there was a level of I I definitely had a chip on my shoulder. I'm getting this PhD, I've got all this knowledge, I have all these things I need to impart on the world. And I couldn't have been more wrong. Yeah, I mean, so we understand that there is a very small um part of the population that earns PhDs and all that. So yeah, I absolutely I'm, you know, feel very fortunate to be of the one or two percent of people in our our nation and even a smaller number of that of folks of color who get that PhD. And so to a certain extent, yes, um, I've got that good fortune of having that credential and get to go to the front of the classroom every semester to teach. But as I learned, the more I learned, the more I realized the less I actually knew, right? So there is this idea, you know, of course, I know sociology, but when you really learn about what it means to be a leader, what it means to really impart knowledge on others, you have to really understand that you have to a meet people where they are, right? And you cannot walk into anything, first of all, thinking A that your knowledge is better than anybody else's, right? So absolutely there is a level of sociology that that I do know more than other folks, but I cannot walk into anybody's classroom space thinking that my knowledge and what I bring to the table is better than yours, Chloe, right? Because then you automatically set up a classroom space as a hierarchy, right? And when there is a hierarchy, then you automatically create oppression and marginalization and exclusion. And that is the very thing that people who look like me have fought so hard against. And so I walk into classroom spaces now wanting to create community, wanting to create belonging, wanting to create and disrupt hierarchy. And so, in order to do that, it has to start with me. And so, even though I've got credentials and all these fancy things, you know, in my um portfolio, if you will, I walk into a classroom space knowing that learning is a two-way exchange that we learn from each other, and that is really the best type of environment for people to learn and to grow. And then, like I said earlier, you know, young folks in particular, this generation have so much to offer, particularly when it comes to being leaders. You all really are the future, and let's be honest, this this whole notion of older people have got it right when it comes to being leaders. We look around, we ain't got it all right. We don't have it all figured out, and so I think that's what I really appreciate the most about Gen Z. Y'all have a way of saying, no, that's not right. There's something wrong about that. And I really appreciate that, and that's really, really refreshing.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned that having the perspective that learning is a two-way street is really important in terms of creating a classroom space full of inclusivity and increasing learning.

Building Belonging Across The Institution

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Where do you see that? And like, how do you what does it mean to really build an institutional culture at Oberlin where everyone feels like they belong and like they can thrive?

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Yeah, so it's about again, you have to disrupt hierarchies, right? As much as you can, because you know, we recognize when you look at sort of organizational culture and institutional cultures, regardless of um anyone's history, particularly when you think about Oberlin's history, regardless of that, there are things in place that reinforce hierarchy and reinforce exclusion. And so you want to be very, very careful about creating spaces, particularly if it's a workplace space, because we have students obviously at Oberlin that are working to attain their degrees, but we also have a thousand employees at Oberlin who come to work every day and they show up to work, and we want to make sure that we are providing a workplace in culture that is inclusive and that feels like a space of belonging. So you have two types of culture kind of coexisting at the same time. And so when I think about the work that I do at the center, part of my work at the center is to create this space that is focused on thought leadership and education and training, but also part of my work is around ensuring that Oberlin a cohesive culture where faculty, staff, and students can thrive. And we really want to center inclusive excellence in all of the work that we do. And so, what does that look like? Really simple things making sure we're asking that people are okay, right? That seems like a really simple thing, but I'll give an example. So, about a week ago, we hosted a convening for the folks who are working at Oberlin who interface with diversity, equity, inclusion on a regular basis. So we brought those DEI professionals for a convening, and we met for about an hour, and we realized it was the first time that we brought folks together since a lot of things have been upended within higher education. And we really led with, how are you doing? Right? Since everything has occurred within higher education, and how can we work better together? How can we collaborate more? And if we do that, right, if we can show up to work and be our best selves, then we can show up for the students so we can help students be their best selves. So those things, while they may seem like um they operate separately, they really need to coexist in order for Oberlin to show up as best of an institution as we can to ensure that student experience is the best possible experience that it can be.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Absolutely. I know that speaking from a student perspective, Oberlin is a really unique place. And I think it's full of a lot of individuals and like most of the student body, I would say, is wary of administration, is wary of people in power, is and is really looking to consider reconstruction and consider um breaking down those hierarchies that are currently in place. And sometimes it stands a little bit in the way of making positive change. I think to have a conflict where we have a system set up at Oberlin where we exist in a hierarchy, but we have a lot of students and members of the of staff that don't enjoy working within that hierarchy. What do you have to say to students that are feeling a little uncomfortable with the administration, with administration and hierarchies in general?

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah. Um, the very first thing I would say is when when's the last time we've come together in community to convene? A lot of times when there is conflict, what I have found, at least at my time in Oberlin, a lot of times there's conflict operating out of miscommunication and a lot of assumptions, right? So folks are moving and making decisions and operating out of misaligned assumptions, right? And so one way to kind of alleviate that or mitigate that really is to come together and talk about that. You know, let's level set on what our expectations are. Let's come together and convene in community to try to understand each other better. The goal necessarily isn't always to agree, but it's a at least should be to let's be a little bit more transparent with each other. Sometimes what I have seen is that folks are probably a little bit more committed to disagreeing than they would probably like to admit. But let's commit to maybe being respectful and commit a little bit more to understanding each other rather than committing to disagreeing. And so I think if there is that level set around expectations and not operating out of assumptions, I think that is that first step that would get us a little bit further in sort of disrupting those silos because for Oberlin to be as small, as small of a place as it is, I have noticed those silos too, Chloe. They're everywhere. Um, and a lot of times I'm like, how are there so many silos in a place that that is this small? And so I think that's a piece of the sort of um, I don't want to say status quo, but sort of the informal agreements that we have as a community, that we are probably too committed to those silos than we need to be, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Yes, I absolutely agree with you.

unknown 16:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

So

Values In Action As A Leader

SPEAKER_01 16:39

I want to shift focus just a little bit back to you as an individual. And I want to look at how values in action, which is one of the core themes of this season, is really embodied in your day in your daily leadership practice and how you live your life.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yeah. So if you want to talk a little bit about your values in action and bringing up the question, okay. Woo. So I think part of who I am as a leader um kind of goes back to what I was just talking about. And it really is sort of, you know, as a leader, I really am committed to wanting other people around me to succeed, right? I am really, really committed to trying to understand how I can help other people around me be successful, right? And that isn't going to be necessarily all the time, and this may come out wrong, but hear me out. That isn't necessarily all the time about making people happy 100% of the time, right? But it is a hundred percent of the time about making sure people feel seen and making sure people have what they need in order to be successful, and making sure that people feel valued. So I am a very much a low-key type of person, so I think about myself as a leader, and I've spent a lot of time over the past, I would say, year evaluating who I am as a leader because I've participated in and I'm currently participating in two programs that have really asked me to assess and evaluate who I am as a leader. So the first program that I participated in was Case Western Reserves uh Weatherhead, their School of Management executive leadership development experience. So it was an eight-month experience where, or actually a six-month experience, where executives had to really think about who they were as leaders. And it was a very interesting, eye-opening and stimulating experience because it really sort of made me think a lot about how I was showing up as a leader. And it even required me to have the people that are on my team, they had to sort of evaluate me as a leader, which, you know, that's happened before, but sort of a 3-6 evaluation of who I am as a leader. So I am much more, I've spent a lot more of my career thinking about myself as a professor. And professors don't get any training on teaching, right? You get most of your training as a researcher, right? That's what your PhD is, a research degree. And then you get thrown to the wolves in the classroom, and you get zero training, at least I didn't, you know, when I was doing my PhD program, I finished my PhD 18 years ago, and you get zero training on being a teacher. They just say, You're teaching this class at this time, good luck, right? And you just get thrown to the wolves. And you fast forward and then you end up in a leadership role, you get even less training on that. You just get this job. Oh, you have direct reports. Good luck. So there's even less training on how to be a leader. And so, because of that, I actively sought out training on leadership because that's really, really important. So, say all that to say, it's really important for me to make sure that I am showing up as a good leader. And I know that as a good leader, you're not necessarily going to always be popular or even liked. But it's important for me, it's important for folks to respect me, and it's important for folks to, and it's important for me to respect people as well, but it's important for folks to say, you know, she made sure that I had everything I need needed to be successful. So my leadership ethos is analogous to my teaching ethos. So I approach being a leader like I approach being a teacher, right? So trying it's a little bit different, but trying as much as you can to suspend the hierarchy, realizing that you have as much to learn from the person that you lead as they have from you, and making sure that you're equipping folks with everything that they need to be successful. And so that's a start. Um, and right now I'm a part of a executive coaching circle for women leaders in higher education, and that's been a lot of fun because I've been with my peers at other institutions who are in similar kinds of roles, and we've been hearing from each other about our sort of our peer experiences within higher education. I don't know if your question I think it absolutely does.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Does. I'm

The Ceiling For Mothers In Leadership

SPEAKER_01 22:01

curious to know about what the biggest challenge is that you face in leadership, as a leader, in leadership roles that you've held in the past.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

This is gonna be a very this this might be a little bit sad, but as a woman, as a woman of color, as a mom, as a single mom, the barriers I have faced the most are reaching a ceiling because I know, recognizing that I have reached a certain ceiling because of being a parent and being a mom, not having access to enough mentoring and recognizing that regardless of how much experience or enthusiasm or talent I may have, that there is a ceiling for me as a as a woman, as a woman of color, who also happens to be a mom to younger children and also a single mom to younger children, that those actually at this point in my life present barriers to entry to the highest levels of leadership that I really want to ascend to. And that once you get to a certain point, there just aren't, you know, a plethora of folks who are going to mentor me and be coaches for me and sponsors for me in the same way that my counterparts would have who don't have children, who aren't women, fill in the blank, whatever my opposite counterparts would be. And that is that's really tough to counteract, right? Which is why I'm participating in these types of programs, so I can get plugged in and I can readily, and it's it is a little disheartening. You readily see, particularly in the coaching circles that I'm a part of, you readily see how my peers are navigating the same kinds of things. Super talented, doing all the things, particularly a lot of the service types of things, and are you know hitting that ceiling and don't necessarily have the group of coaches or mentors to kind of help them break into that high that next highest level just because there aren't other women there to kind of pull them up.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, absolutely. So with with that, that is I know. But it's it's a really important thing to talk about, I think, especially as now you hold a role as an executive director at Oberlin College and are moving through these spaces and capable of mentoring other people coming up after you and walking in your shoes and behind you, other women, other women of color, other mothers, other single mothers. And I think it's really incredible that you have built or you're in integrating into these spaces where you're engaging in the mentorship and you're engaging in being mentored and speaking to your peers and you're able to continue that further than yourself.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Yeah, it's it's a it's a daily tension for me, though. It just is, and it's not because I'm at Oberlin, it's been a tension since 2011, which is when my oldest daughter was born. It's a tension that I've had to sort of quietly navigate in in private because I haven't had enough people who have allowed me to navigate that tension out loud. So, in other words, I there there hasn't been enough, I haven't had enough coaches or sponsors or folks, particularly within higher ed, who have said it's okay to miss this or miss that, we'll make room for X, Y, and Z, or you know, if you pause the tenure clock for having a daughter or having kids, you know, all the conversations, and it's not to say that the institutions I've been at haven't been accommodating, but it has been a tension nonetheless, and the messaging has always been around, you know, this idea of me feeling that being a mom is a great thing, but it's always been a detriment to my career, right? So it's this feeling that if I want both of those things, meaning being a mother and being a successful academic, to coexist, then I have to very carefully navigate and negotiate how they exist. I've I haven't regularly felt that I can openly navigate those two identities. Forget about Jeffrey Ann as a person. I mean, that's and that's a whole nother like just me as a person, right? But me as a sociologist, as a career, like me, my career and my parenthood, my motherhood, those have been two very tense things I've navigated for almost 15 years. That I've navigated, right? I I've done it, but it's always been a bit of a cost. And I I will have to say, I would be remiss if I did not say that I've really appreciated my current boss, my president, Carmen Anbar, who has wonderfully provided an opportunity for me to carefully negotiate those things in my current role. And I feel that I've been able to do that in my current role because she is someone who's had to do that herself. I don't know if I have would been able to do that if I was reporting to someone who didn't have to do that themselves. Right? It's always been attention and I I wish that work life balance wouldn't have to be so careful and hard to negotiate. Should not be that hard. I also want to name that I have a PhD, and it's very easy for me to be in spaces where I can negotiate because of the type of job I have, because of the degree I have. There are women who aren't who do not have the chance or the option of negotiating, and the cost is much higher for them every single day.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yes, absolutely. So you mentioned that this has been something that you've been dealing with since 2011, since your oldest daughter was born. Have you seen changes and evolution? I mean, you talked touched briefly on on the allowances of working here at Oberlin College at this point in your career, but have you seen other developments, other places where things have changed in the world, in your career, in those allowances and those spaces and what you're able to do and how you're able to find those balances in your life throughout your career?

SPEAKER_00 29:33

I wish I could say I have seen more progress. I really wish I could. I did work for an organization for five years at the University of Colorado Boulder, worked for NCWIT, the National Center for Women in Information Technology. That was absolutely fantastic. It was a remote first organization. And so I I never felt any kinds of tension with that organization. And, you know, my youngest daughter is almost five. And when I was there and had my youngest daughter, you know, it was just that was very seamless being able to go on maternity leave and things like that. They made a ton of concessions, but it's it's so case by case. And again, I have not seen anything writ large, you know, that we need to be seeing nationally when I think about higher education in general. No, um, I have not seen these massive shifts. I recall when I first started working at Oberlin, my oldest daughter, who, like I said, is 14 and a half, coming to Oberlin, and I remember how weird it felt bringing her to Oberlin with me because in my first um tenure and track role as a younger professor when my my my oldest daughter was just born or what have you, I never took her to work with me. Was very careful not to take her to work with me because I did not want to show up in that way. I was very careful about that. And it's not that folks said, don't bring your daughter to work, but it's just that tension that I felt around, oh my gosh, what if I bring her to work or what happens, and just all that negotiating that went on. And yeah, she came to work with me a couple times a couple summers ago, and no big deal, whatever. And I also think that I got more comfortable as a parent over time, but I do not think that um things have progressed so much to that point. There's still anxious points that I still feel, and I know that other parents feel that way too, and not just moms, right? But I think we still have a long way to go.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

That reminds me of the idea of diversity, equity, and inclusion at Oberlin, but specifically how unique the name of the center is at Oberlin College, right?

Why DEI Needs Innovation

SPEAKER_01 32:11

It's the center for diversity, equity, inclusion, but it's also innovation and leadership. And so when we talk about these issues that are present in the workplace and in higher education in general, what does innovation specifically look like in those regards, specifically at Oberlin, but also in the DEI space at large?

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Yeah. And so innovation and leadership is really, really important when we think about our title because it is exactly where we started this conversation around our history. We have both a privilege and an obligation to honor that history and that legacy by remaining future facing in the work that we do, specifically with specifically as it remains, as it pertains to diversity, equity, and inclusion. So how are we continuing to honor our legacy as it remains, as it pertains to access and equity, right? So it's about thinking, always being mindful of the future. It's about being a best practice, it's about being a model, right? And so that's what we mean by innovation. And so in my mind, innovation is Oberlin through and through. And so that is why innovation belongs in that title. Equally, when we think about leadership, it is about bringing up the next generation of change makers, specifically as it relates to access, equity, belonging, social justice, social change. But that is also overlined through and through. And so it would not be enough to just name ourselves the center for DEI. When we think about the work that we do, of course, it is around diversity, equity, and inclusion, but it is also about actively being a best practice and a model, and it is also about creating the next generation of leaders, and so that's where our title comes from. It's about making sure that we stay true to our history, but we're also thinking about our future as well.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Absolutely.

Redefining Leadership For Gen Z

SPEAKER_01 34:52

What kind of change do you think that Oberlin is uniquely positioned to create? Oberlin students, Oberlin as a higher education institution. Where do you think we fit into that?

SPEAKER_00 35:05

I really think the leadership part, right? I think that's where I would personally love to see that change occur. We've been talking a lot over the past few months around the leadership gap that we we've seen over the past few years, and specifically the leadership gap when it comes to the younger generations, right? I think in a lot of ways, when we think about leadership, we've been a little selfish when it comes to sort of hoarding leadership among older folks, right? Or sort of allowing or not allowing young people to really step into leadership when they're young, right? Leadership is not a title that you know we've got these, gosh, you've seen them, the 40 under 40 or the 50 under 50 or whatever. I love those lists, they're great, but also throw those lists away, right? You don't need to be a certain age to be a leader. I have a almost five-year-old, and she is a leader in her own right. And I work with a group of change record fellows, Chloe. You're one of them, and every single one of y'all are leaders, every last one of you. And I don't think that we need to be stingy with the terminology leadership because you haven't hit the age of 40 years old. I think that's the leadership gap that we're seeing that we need to do better with. And so I think that's where I'm holding out my hope to see Oberlin, this, you know, generation of Oberlin students kind of like switch up, as we used to say, or change the game a little bit. We don't have to wait for someone to get a certain age for them to be donned a leader. You know, leadership happens every single day, and we have leaders around us all the time. We don't need someone to be listed anywhere to be a leader. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

I think that for me, I'm a current student, I'm 20 years old, and I'm really at that point in my life where I'm grappling with trying to figure out how I move forward in my life, in my career, to really make a positive impact in the world, especially when it feels so overwhelming to go enter into the workplace in this political climate with so much division and conflict and things happening in the world and so many positive differences that I want to make? Sometimes it just doesn't feel possible to be able to make that significant effort when it feels like these problems are so big. What advice would you have for people in my position, for us upcoming students, upcoming workers in the workforce that are about to enter and start trying to make positive change in the world?

SPEAKER_00 38:00

You know, Chloe, I'm 49 years old and I could make the same statement that you just made. There are moments where I'm still trying to figure it out and wonder if, like, shoot, does this make sense? I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm not sure if I should go left or right. Does this make sense? Is it possible? I have so many questions. Is it is it gonna is it gonna work? Is it not gonna work? And so my advice to you would be just do it, just keep going. Trust your gut. If I look back over my life and what what I know has not failed me every single time, it's been my voice, my gut, right? Trust your gut. I tell my kids that all the time. Like, listen to your gut, listen to yourself. You know, that's your intuition, it never stews you wrong. And so I don't think you need to wait for another right opportunity or wait a few more years for you to feel like you're ready. Jump in now. Life is on the job training, all of it. You don't need a few more years of XYZ experience. Literally, all of life is on the job training. So jump in, have fun, enjoy, learn as you go, but learn, right? And just figure it out as you go.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

That's great, that's great advice. Yeah, I agree. I think that the most amount of learning I've ever done in my life is not in the classroom, but it's out there on the ground doing the work. And I think that's it's a great perspective to have.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Yeah.

Learning By Doing And Letting Go

SPEAKER_00 39:42

And on that note though, can I just can we just, I mean, this is kind of off topic, but this is why I have become so like I I know my faculty peers are probably gonna roll their eyes at me when I say this, but like just so chill when it comes to like assignments and things like that, because you're gonna learn it. You get in class. I used to be such a stickler for the homework and the assignments and the this and the that, and oh my god, you need to learn all of the things. And but you know, when you come together in class, you learn from each other, you learn it, you figure it out, right? And all the reading, oh my gosh, you didn't do the reading. I know you didn't do the reading. It's okay. We know it's okay, it'll still be okay, and so I think you just you figure things out, and I feel like that's kind of made me a uh a much um I once I sort of leaned into the learning piece and enjoying the learning as much as my students are I I learned that students enjoyed my classes more once I started enjoying the students more as opposed to gosh, what are we gonna we need to uh we need to read 55 pages. They're not gonna read all the read as you know what I mean, but it it Yes okay, yeah. My faculty peers are not gonna like that, but that's how I go about teaching and learning.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah, I think you learn some things from reading them in a book, but I have never learned the important things about life or the important things in my courses, unless I just say, I'm gonna just jump right in and I'm gonna learn about this on the ground. Yeah, it just yeah, you apply it way better.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

And then there are some like fundamental things about a course or a topic that you do want students to walk away with. That's what they'll remember, right? That's the stuff they'll remember. Absolutely.

unknown 41:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Well, this has been so wonderful. I've talked your ear off. This was that's what we that's what we wanted.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

I know that's you know, we you know, when the cameras are not rolling and things aren't going, you and I always have lovely conversations, and I always appreciate whenever we talk because it's always good conversation.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

It's always lovely to speak with you, Dr. Wilder. Yes, so it's been a pleasure, Chloe. Thank you so much for being on this episode, Dr. Wilder. And thank you for having me. Yes, absolutely.