The North Star

Getting Into Good Trouble: Dr. Gregory Hutchings Jr. on Dismantling Systemic Inequities in Schools

• JeffriAnne Wilder, Ph.D. • Season 2 • Episode 3

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We sit down with Dr. Gregory C. Hutchings Jr., teacher, principal, superintendent, consultant, and now professor at Howard University, to map a leadership journey that breaks barriers without losing its compass. From making history in Shaker Heights as the first Black superintendent at 35 to steering Alexandria City Public Schools through a pandemic and political crosswinds, Dr. Hutchings shares how his VIP framework (Vision, Integrity, Passion) kept him grounded while centering Black and Brown students.

You’ll hear the inside story of pushing for equity in districts known for tradition, what happens when you change who sits at the table, and why authenticity, down to how a family shows up, matters in public leadership. We explore measurable wins that challenge false tradeoffs between equity and excellence: higher graduation rates, full accreditation, and a strategic plan with equity at its core despite statewide retrenchment. Then we zoom out to the national stage as Dr. Hutchings steps from the superintendency into movement work, founding Revolutionary Ed and Hutchings & Associates, to help boards and leaders dismantle systemic racism with strategy, governance, and coaching.

  • Origin story and early shift into education
  • Becoming the first Black superintendent in Shaker Heights City Schools 
  • VIP leadership model: vision, integrity, passion
  • Authenticity, family, and community grounding
  • Legacy in Alexandria amid pandemic and politics
  • Equity results: graduation, accreditation, new campus
  • Burnout, therapy, and sustainable leadership
  • Moving from district leader to national systems builder
  • Howard University role and the leadership pipeline
  • Research on Black women superintendents and solutions
  • Pipelines, networks, and board relations for equity

🔗 Find out more about Dr. JeffriAnne Wilder.
🔗 Follow the Center for DEI Innovation and Leadership on LinkedIn.
🌎Visit Oberlin College's website.
Podcast Produced by: Paradigm Media Group

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to the North Star. I'm Dr. Jeffrey Ann Wilder, Executive Director of the Oberlin Center for DEI Innovation and Leadership. This season we're exploring disruption, the moments when leaders choose to challenge systems, shift perspectives, and chart new paths. My guest today is Dr. Gregory C. Hutchins Jr., a national education leader and scholar whose career spans teacher, principal, superintendent, consultant, and now professor at Howard University. We'll talk about his leadership journey, his current research, and what it means to create change in today's climate. Welcome, Dr. Hutchings.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, thank you. I'm happy to be here. And congratulations to you. I think you're the year two, right? Of this new role.

SPEAKER_01:

I love it. Really, really excited. And I have to say, I know that we have seen each other in passing at various times. And it has been, I've been really excited to have the opportunity to sit down and talk to you. We have shared sort of had intersecting paths at different points. I worked at Shaker Heights School District. Not at the same time that you worked at Shaker Heights School District. I'm a professor, you're a professor. And so we've got a lot to talk about today. So let's get into it. Before we jump into your professional career and your leadership journey, I love an origin story, right? So can you tell us a little bit about your origin story? Tell us a little bit about where you're from and what sort of shaped you into the person that you are today.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, first off, I'm born and raised. I feel like I'm a fresh prince and I'm from West Philadelphia, but I'm not born and raised. I'm from Alexandria, Virginia, uh outside of Washington, D.C., um, which is amazing because I became the superintendent of the school district that raised me, right? Which was pretty awesome to do, which I know we'll talk about a little later. Um, but I'm from Alexandria. I got here because my father, he is a graduate of Howard University. And um, when he was uh he was graduated from Howard, actually the day he graduated from Howard, I was born Friday the 13th. I know May 13th, 1977. My dad was he was graduating from, they have the School of Business graduation was on that Friday. The big graduation was on that Saturday or Sunday or something like that. But everyone down for my dad's graduation. So people would send me cards for years that I didn't really know in my family because everyone can't remember my birth because I was born. And, you know, go figure I'm now a professor at Howard University, which is pretty amazing to me. But, you know, a part of my my story is just the simple fact I was raised in a household, even though my dad was a Howard University graduate. My parents got a divorce, and my mom was a single mom, raising three children and Alex Andrea. And I knew not early on that I was gonna be an educator because when I was in high school, I thought I was gonna be Marcus from Boomerang and working in New York. That's not good. That is not good. I thought I was gonna be marrying a Halle Berry or something, you know. So uh which I got my own Halle Berry, my wife, Cheryl. But 23 years, by the way. But I thought I was going into marketing and I thought I was gonna be an actor. I had all these aspirations to go to Hollywood and LA and um and I got to, you know, to college. And right after college, I was an admissions counselor and I realized education was where I think I was supposed to be. And I'm glad I made that decision. Her name was Joyce Sigmundson, who was a principal at River Oaks Elementary School in Prince William County. I was an admissions counselor for Old Domain at the time. And she said, You would be a great teacher. Here's my business card. Call me whenever you're ready to do the call for teaching. And three months later, I gave her a call. It was like October of 2000. So the school year had already started. I called her and she said, You know what? I have a position that's available. Can you come interview tomorrow? And I was like, Tomorrow? You know, so I went, interviewed, and the rest was history. I became a teacher October 2000 at River Oaks Elementary School as a fifth grade teacher, not having kids at that time, wasn't married or anything, and just now responsible for these 25 kids, which was crazy and intimidating, but I survived and the rest is history.

SPEAKER_01:

25 years ago. 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_00:

25 years ago. Yep. 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my goodness, what an origin story. So let's let's fast forward the tape a little bit. You kind of scared me a little bit saying Marcus from Boomerang, because I I I completely didn't even completely forgot what his profession was. I was thinking about the player type, right? So that made me a little bit. Right. That all of that part.

SPEAKER_00:

He was a marketing executive.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Right. So 25 years later, then you served in a variety of educational administration roles after sort of setting, starting out in the classroom. And then you end up getting a call from Shaker Heights City School District, which is in the Cleveland, Ohio area, which is my hometown. And you made history. Right? Let's let's let's spend a little time talking about the history that you made because or as humble as you want to kind of talk about these beginnings, it's pretty story. So for those folks who may not know, um, Shaker Heights, Ohio is a first-ranked uh suburb. It really it borders the city of Cleveland. It's a small, it neighbors the city of Cleveland, small, very diverse community neighboring the city of Cleveland, and has its own distinctive, unique history of integration. And at 35 years old, you became their first black superintendent, right? And as I said earlier, we're we were spending season two of this podcast talking about disruption, and you know, Shaker Heights has been written about a lot by a lot of people over the course of Shaker's history, particularly as it relates to the education arena, right? So people write a lot about Shaker Heights and thinking about the educational outcomes. I studied about Shaker Heights even as a doctoral student and thinking about educational outcomes. There is a journalist by the name of Laura Mechler who wrote a couple years ago a book called Dream Town, where she talks, she tells the story of racial equity in Shaker. And you actually have a chapter in that book. We're not gonna get into a lot about what she writes in Shaker, uh writes about you in that book. I want you to tell the story about what it meant for you to make history in Shaker as a superintendent. What did that mean for you to walk into Shaker Heights as a 35-year-old first black superintendent in that school district?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, first off, I I want to just thank Shaker Heights for the opportunity, right? For believing in me, because that the board took a significant risk in hiring me. You know, tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_01:

Why was that risky?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, because I was coming after Mark Freeman, who was there for 25 years as a superintendent, right? He was seasoned, he was Jewish, he was in the community, he was a teacher in that community, so well, well known, well respected. And you have this young, ambitious black man coming in, right?

SPEAKER_01:

And not from the community, right?

SPEAKER_00:

And not from the community from the outside, not even from you know, I'm from Virginia. Um my mom is from Dayton, Ohio, though. And my my aunt and uncle, they live in Cleveland Heights. So I have been to the area before, but I had never thought that I would be the superintendent of Shaker Heights. I mean, I read about Shaker in my grad program. So when I got the call to become superintendent, I I literally I was so honored for the call. And I knew that being the first black superintendent, I was going to be unapologetic and I was gonna have to go in and to do what I felt I was called to do. And that was to disrupt, that was to make sure that our black families in Shaker Heights had a voice, had a seat at the table, and that their needs were gonna be met. I always say I just did an interview recently about Shaker, and I had shared with them that Shaker was one of the best jobs that I've had, but also one of the most challenging jobs that I had because I grew up as a leader with Shaker. You know, I came in to Shaker, the sky's the limit, right? Which I still have that philosophy right now, the sky's the limit. Like I think I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me, right? But I came in and I didn't have a lot of lead executive leadership experience, right? So I wasn't quite a strategic thinker when I started at Shaker. I was a strategic planner because I was specialized in that in my doctoral program, but I wasn't a strategic thinker yet. And when I got there and I started making decisions around our black families and going into the community and saying, you know, I need certain people to be at this table that were never at the table before, I didn't expect to get some of the pushback that I received. Because I felt like you all hired you. I I was honest as to who I was in my interview. I told you what I believed in and you all hired me. So why are people now upset that I'm doing what I said I was gonna do? Like I told you what was gonna happen, you know? But I was a little taken back by that. And it it caused me to really get tougher skin, right? I think just being black in America prepares you for a lot more than we believe as African Americans. So I think my life prepared me for Shaker, but going through some of the opposition really challenged, challenged me. And that is when I begin to use the acronym VIP. Not very important people, but vision, integrity, and passion. Shaker pushed me to have vision. It pushed me to stay true to my integrity, it pushed me to continue to have the passion so I can come back and do the work, even when it's not fun and exciting and rewarding, right? That you're still gonna do what's right. And I commend them for that. I also thank Shaker for, you gotta think, when I started Shaker Heights, our kids were three and eight, which they're now 15 and 20, right? Oh, it's crazy. Our daughters now, she's a junior in college, our son's a junior in high school. But coming to Shaker with a young family, I still remember my wife saying, because at the time she had she and her hair was natural, right? She had she just cut her hair, she got rid of her perm, and she's like, I'll do it now. She's like, Well, do I need to press, do I need to blow out my hair? You know what I was like.

SPEAKER_01:

Your wife making questioning what she should do with her hair.

SPEAKER_00:

My wife, what should she do with her hair? I remember we're having this conversation, like, should I blow my hair out? Should I look like the first lady? Like, should I put on a dress? You know, like so going through all this, and I said, you know what, Cheryl, just be you. Be, well, you know what you see is what you get, right? We don't need to change who we are going to the community. And she came there with her natural hair and our daughter's natural hair. You know, my wife still blows her hair. They both my wife and daughter, they blow their hair out sometimes. But um, it came with their natural hair, and we came in and we said, we're gonna be authentically black, and we're going to remain who we are and join our black church, which we didn't go to the Catholic church to visit, but I knew I wasn't joining the Catholic Church. I went to the synagogue to visit, so I wouldn't join the synagogue, but we joined Olive Institutional Baptist Church, which Pastor Coven is still my forever pastor. But we we really embraced and we were in Jack and Jill there. So we embraced our black culture and remained ourselves. One final thing I do want to say, other than the accolades we have from Shaker, because Laura, when she wrote her book, she I almost didn't talk to Laura to write my chapter of the book because she did an article about me when I first came to Alexandria that was very, I felt disrespectful and untrue. Uh, and I called her out on that. And I told myself, I ain't never talking to that woman again. You know, like, and then when she calls me about this book she's writing, I'm like, I I told my executive assistant, absolutely not, hang up on her. I ain't talking to her, right? So um she calls back and she says, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write this chapter, whether you talk to me or not. And I and I thought about that for a minute. I said, okay, so let me let me at least give her the benefit of the doubt and let me just be honest with her before we have the interview. And I told her straight up, I didn't like the way you wrote that article about me. And I did not appreciate it, and I think it was very disrespectful and it was false. So if you're gonna write this chapter, you need to let me speak my truth.

SPEAKER_01:

That's it.

SPEAKER_00:

I went on a whole nother tangent because I was thinking about it. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01:

This is this is actually the reason why I brought the brought in Laura Meckler's book. And I I mean, I know that it was very popular, and I think that it was received in a a lot of different ways. I joined Shaker in 2020 during the height of the pandemic, and really I think all the things that you mentioned about your work at Shaker and the challenges that you experience at Shaker resonate with me in a lot of ways because I joined Shaker in 2020, really based upon a lot of the work, really the seeds that were planted during the time that you were the superintendent, right? The work around creating, really making educational equity being at the forefront of the work at Shaker. And when I walked into the role of Shaker's first executive director of diversity, equity, and inclusion, my work was so important and really I I won't say easy, but when by the time I got there, people were like, Let's get to work because of a lot of the seeds and a lot of the work that had been done during the time that you were there, the equity task force, all the things that had that you had put into action. By the time I got there in 2020, people were like, let's get to work because there was so much that had already been done as a result of the work that you had done and the work that David David Glasner had put into work by the time that I was there. P.S. Every time that Laura Meckler uh requested an interview from me, I turned her down. Nah, I'm not interested in being in the work. But I do think it's fair. One thing I will say about your particular chapter, I could definitely tell that it was very much balanced given what was written. And I really appreciated the the level of aut authenticity that was written about your experience that was there. I think, you know, what you just mentioned, walking into that role as the first and the youngest superintendent of color in Shaker in such a storied fashion, given the history, given the distinctiveness of the district, of course, was going to be challenging. And even thinking about you right, Shaker is the national merit finalist, Shaker is the student who struggles to graduate in five years, right? So the expectations were very, very high. And thinking about all the challenges that you faced, definitely not surprising. But in thinking about the theme of disruption, Mark Joseph, who is a faculty member at Case Western Reserve and one of the folks who really rallied to get you there wrote about your being the superintendent at Shaker, said quote, we got a big disruption to the status quo. It kind of shook us up and will never be the same in a good way. So that's really important to think about the legacy that you left at Shaker, because then you take that, and as you we talked about your story, you left Shaker, right? And so, like LeBron, right, who came back to Cleveland, right? Went back to your hometown of Alexandria to become the superintendent. You do that. What was your legacy in Alexandria being the superintendent there?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, um, it was a tough decision actually for me to apply to Alexandria because at the time people didn't know this, but I was being recruited to go to some other districts from Shaker. And I had just signed another contract to say I'm gonna stay. So then Alexandria opened up and I applied to the Alexandria job the last day and was open. Because I knew I said, if I submit my application, I think I'm gonna get the job. I really believe I'm gonna get this job if I submit this. So do I really want to do this? I my mom, we had moved my mom to Shaker Heights to help us out with the kids. You know, like we loved our, we had our community, we loved our home. We'll never get a house like we had at Shaker again, a historic 1920, what it, 1928 or something. It was a beautiful historical tutor style home. And I'm like, am I gonna leave all this? Because I'm I'm good. I feel great. I've we're making progress, I'm making good money, I love the community, but there's no place like home. And one thing that I realized coming back to Alexandria was that, yes, people said the goat was coming back home and all these types of things, but that challenges came with that too. What I've realized in Alexandria was that, um, because I was far removed from Alexandria after I graduated from high school, because my mom moved to Maryland. So I would go back to visit Friends, but I didn't live there anymore until I was a director there many years later. But what I realized in Alexandria was that we had a lot of liberal races in a city where the first Africans arrived in this country and were dispersed all over America. And because of the heart of racism that resonated in the city of Alexandria, it was in the heart of all the work that I was hired to do. I was the second black superintendent in Alexandria. Alvin Crawley was the first black superintendent who was right before me. So we were back to back, which people you don't typically see a black hire, another black person get hired after black person. It's rare, right? But um the interim person was a white woman, Lois Berlin. She was the uh interim before I came in, but she didn't want the job. She was just there until they hired a new superintendent. And God rests, you know, Dr. Crawley's soul, because he passed away a couple of years ago. But he paved the way, really, for me, because he was taking a very strong stance on equity. He was talking about it, and it was kind of like how you said I I was getting things prepared for when you got to Shaker. People were saying, let's do. It was similar when I got to Alexandria, like, okay, well, now let's do. And I had thought going to Alexandria because it was such a liberal community in my hometown that it would be easier than Shaker. And it actually was more challenging than Shaker. So Alexandria was harder for me than Shaker Heights. And then you have to add 2020 with the pandemic, and uh, you know, you got to think of, you know, our whole racial reckoning in America happening. You have to think of the fact that when I became superintendent in Alexandria, President Trump, the first round, was become president of the United States, which is right across the water. And Betsy DeVos was, you know, our U.S. Secretary of Education. So because we're we were so close to the nation's capital, I was in the heart of all of the politics. And that was just an additional layer that Shaker didn't have. Shaker, I mean, they had politics, but it wasn't DC politics, right? It was just a little different. So I had some challenges, but my legacy was that we were unapologetic. Like, I mean, in Alexandria, because I knew that Alexandria was going to be the last superintendency. I knew that going in when I got hired, I told them I wasn't gonna go anywhere else because there's no place like home. Like, who's gonna top my hometown? It wasn't my goal to have a career uh and to retire as a superintendent. I became a superintendent 35. I knew I wasn't gonna do it for 30 years. That just wasn't gonna be my thing.

SPEAKER_01:

So you to so you knew going in that two things that this was gonna be it for you, and that this wasn't necessarily going to be a long tenure.

SPEAKER_00:

Not 30 years. Now I didn't think it was gonna be five.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and I was committed to 10. I was I almost did 10, but I believe what happened for me was if the pandemic didn't occur, I probably still would be finishing my contract in Alexandria. I was exhausted. Like the pandemic, it caused so much anxiety for me when we were gone having to make medical decisions. Like I'm not a medical doctor, I'm an education doctor, right? So it's just a little different when you you got people's lives at stake and I'm making the final decision. That was a lot of stress for me. I had to see, which I still see my therapist even now from that. I was starting to have anxiety attacks, which I never had in my life until then, that nobody knew I had to still show up every day and be the leader and be calm and be, you know, um firm and confident in what I'm saying. But then at behind closed doors, I was broken and tired and exhausted and afraid. But I knew that I was gonna need to get everybody back into our schools and get us on the right path before I could throw in the top. So I committed to doing that for two additional years, even though I was really done in 2020. I stayed at 2022. And I think, you know, through that time, we changed to school names. We built a new um campus of the high school. We started a new equity plan, the first time in the state of Virginia to have a strategic plan that's focused on equity, right? Um, and all of this was happening when we had just hired a new governor who was one of President Trump's friends in the state of Virginia who pretty much banned equity and all of the equity work that we had done as a state was deleted or erased. That was a huge uphill battle that, you know, I was I was fighting here. But I I want to believe, and I still believe, because I still I'm still close to folks in Alexandria because that's my hometown. They are still doing the work. Right. And we were able to have the highest graduation rate in 20 years under my leadership. We were able to have all of our schools accredited for the first time in 25 years of our leadership in Alexandria. So I knew when I informed the board that I was going to be resigning from my position in 2022, I knew that we had made it to heights that they had never made it before. And it was hard for them to be, I mean, of course, people don't want to go, but it's hard to be upset because I did take us to another level. I didn't leave it the way I walked in. And same as Shaker, right? No matter what folks will say, if you go look at the data, the data will show you that progress was made. Um, and even, you know, when uh I think Laura said this a couple of times, you know, well, the the process changed for the state. You came in as an F and you left as a B, and that's not a true statement. And I said, well, if every, if if that's not a true statement, every school system in Ohio that had an F would have been a B when I left. If that wasn't a true statement. And every school district was not. Some were still F's. So it wasn't the system that gave us a B, right? It was the work that we did there. And it was us really making sure that students, particularly our black and brown students, that they mattered and that they had the access and that we also believed in them. One thing that I brought to Shaker and Alexandria was a very strong belief system. One thing for me, I mean, I'm a person that I love hard, right? So it's good for my wife, right? Because like I mean when I make a commitment, it's like I'm committed. So 23 years, it's hard to say merit, but I'm committed. So I'm but I I love hard. I'm that same way when it comes to the passion in schools and for our young people, especially our black and brown people. I'm so passionate that it's by any means necessary. You will not ruin their lives, you will not put systems in place that prevent them from achieving whatever goal they set for themselves. You will not tell them that they can't. It would always be if you want to do something, we're gonna help you get there, right? And that was the mentality that I carried in Shaker and Alexandria. And I think for both, that's probably the legacy I hope they will remember about me. And that I also did it with a smile. I never came in having to, you know, be like an aggressive type person, right? Now I can be stern and I can tell you what I want and what I need at a particular time, but I'm not someone who tries to make fear to get you to do what I want. I gotta put fear in you to do something, and there's no point you even working here. So like I I will help get your way on out by just turning up the heat in regards to holding you accountable, not in being mean to you, just telling you this is what's expected. And if you can't live up to it, then you know, take your take yourself somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, the legacy continues, right? Just now in a different way. So you decided to transition from being a superintendent at Alexandria because there was just a lot happening and quite frankly, you were burnt out. Makes sense. But like all good leaders, you found a path as a professor. And really, what's really interesting to me is thinking about shifting the pathway and sort of thinking about improving or bridging that achievement gap, right? So at the earlier part of your career as an educator and then as an administrator, you know, you were improving educational outcomes, bridging that achievement gap as an administrator, superintendent, but now you're doing that by continuing to complete the pipeline, if you will, by addressing women superintendents. So, um, as a current faculty member at Howard University, your research right now looks at the experiences of black women superintendents. Can you walk us through that research and why that is such an important piece and addressing both the pipeline issue, but also more importantly, looking at uh bridging, continuing to abridge educational outcomes.

SPEAKER_00:

So, right before I go into that, can I just add one piece? Please. Because there's one connector that we missed out. So I was tired, right? And I was exhausted. And I was also compelled to do more. So when I left the superintendency in Alexandria, I had written a book, Getting into Good Trouble at School, which is a guide to building an anti racist school system. And I felt that this country at that particular time was. At this racial crossroads, and me being pigeonholed in one district is not allowing me to truly be my authentic self. And that was why I was so tired. So I knew that I'm not going to be able to speak openly and honestly without all of these consequences and everything being referred back to, you know, Dr. Hutchings is just doing this for his own reputation and to build his own brand and image, right? I got tired of hearing that so much versus why can't it be that this is a black man who is trying to advocate for black children? Why does it have to be about me? Right. I wrote my book for people to serve the needs of black and brown children across America. And then I said, I want to take it even further and start my own business, which I started Revolutionary Ed, which focused on dismantling systemic racism in public education across America, which now I have two businesses, Revolutionary Ed and Hutchinson Associates, which does executive coaching and strategic planning and school board relations. Right. So I'm making sure that we are creating that foundation. So that led to if I am setting this foundation for school districts across the country, I need to make sure I'm putting my time, my energy, my efforts where my mouth is as well. So I need to help produce the next superintendents of America so that they have that foundation and that they're able to withstand what this world is bringing. So I knew that I'm still standing, right? I knew that I've done some radical things. I knew that I've been revolutionary. I knew that I've been able to overcome adversity. And I still have life. I still feel I'm in good health, right? I'm still a believer. I'm still excited about this work, right? In spite of all of those things. Let me make sure that this next generation has that kind of grounding so that they can too stand tall and not be pushed down or beaten. And that led me to Howard University, which to me is the Mecca. That is the epitome of where we're going to produce black leaders who, one, can unapologetically be black, two, will have the ability to be the scholar practitioner to dismantle the systemic racism in public education or in education, just in general across America. And that was why I wanted to do research on black superintendents. And when I decided that that was going to be my research focus, black superintendents, because I'm a black superintendent and I had to overcome all the things I just shared, a theme came out of that work. And the theme was black women and intersectionality and the challenges that they have. And that led me to say, okay, when this is the one remark that I heard repeatedly that stuck with me and is still driving me to do this research in regards to black women's superintendents. Black women's superintendents told me that they felt black men did not support them throughout their tenure. Black women's superintendents told me some of their biggest advocates were white men. I was shocked to hear that. I've been a black feminist my whole life. I guess I'm raised by a black woman. I got a black wife, you know, I got black daughters. So I have always been an advocate for black women. I have always been an ally, a cheerleader, a promoter, you know. Black women, I had I hired a lot of black women for my teams. They never had issues with salary. They never, like I always gave the highest salary out. Like I had always been in that space. And I, but I was in kind of like my own bubble. And I didn't realize that that wasn't the way black women have perceived their journey. And um, because I was so taken back by that, it forced me to say, okay, well, let me dig a little deeper and find out what is going on that is preventing one, black men from valuing our black women and holding them up and lifting them up. And two, also even other black women. Some of the black women said that they some of their biggest nemesis are other black women, which I was like, wow, you know. Um, so uh, which I heard my wife say certain things, she's not an education. She, you know, she's a business owner, she owns a CPA firm, so she's in a business world, but she said some of the same things that she found some of her most challenges have been with other black women instead of being lifted up um by each other. So this is why I'm doing this research now. And what I'm finding is that black women, as Mark Malcolm X said this in the 60s, the black woman is the most disrespected person in America. I believe the black woman superintendent is the most disrespected educator in America, but the black woman is the most educated person in America, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm gonna just not necessarily play in devil's advocate, but as someone who has supervised a ton of doc students and that sort of thing, what what are we what are you hoping your research is going to help inform our field of education?

SPEAKER_00:

Ten years from now, this research is going to be the most widely cited in this area because so this research, it's not about see so I I believe in having problem investigators, right? So you find all these problems, but I also believe in having problem solvers. And I'm hoping that this research will create pipelines that will allow this next generation of black women to not have to go over as many obstacles, right? So that they we're being we're putting systems. This is what I, and this is why we had our black women reconvening just a couple of weeks ago through Howard University. Our dean had this vision, and we brought black women superintendents from all over the country together to do a reconvening to talk about quest and to talk about the importance of leadership and how intersectionally causes you to feel overwhelmed. These are the types of things that I think my research is going to bring about. Supports for black women, networks for black women, how do board members work with black women's superintendents? How do black women's superintendents work with each other? What do what does a solid network that's going to uplift black women to be the best they can possibly be? What will that look like? Right. So that's what I'm hoping that this research does. That it does reveal some of the problems, but also some of the greatness and solutions to ensure black women can be successful and will be, so that they won't continue to be scapegoated and hired to do jobs, that they get fired to do the same job they were hired to do. They didn't even cause the problem, but now they're losing their jobs. And I have a lot of my black women superintendent sisters who are in those situations that have lost their jobs for no reason. No reason at all, but because they are black women and misunderstood, but then hired when the sky literally is falling and there's no way but up. And they make the most progress and they get fired for the problem they didn't even cause, which is which is absolutely nuts to me. And it happens to black men too, but it's happening to black women at greater rates. And less than 2% of our superintendents across America right now are black women. There was research that I just spoke with one of my colleagues, and she shared this with me. She's doing research on black women superintendents across America. There are 26 states right now that does not have a black woman as a superintendent. 26 states. That's more than half that do not have a black woman in the entire state as a superintendent. Across the districts across their districts. Across the United States of America. That to me is unbelievable. And when you think about when you add black men into the picture, it's only 3% of superintendents across America are black. That's it. Right? So this work is going to allow for this next generation of one to know that you can do it. Because I think a lot of folks going through these ranks right now and being in some of these education programs, especially if you're at other schools, it's not happening to HBCUs. It's definitely not happening to Howard. But I think some people, black folks who are in education, they are being pushed into thinking that they can't do certain things or that things aren't possible. You can't be a or you can't be, you know, a leader of an organization, or you can't be a principal, or right. So they're being influenced. And I think sometimes there's a false narrative that makes them feel like they can't do something. We need to begin to have pipelines to let young people before they even get into education know you can, right? You can be a principal, you can be a superintendent, you can lead a school district, right? And we also need to, as educators, stop saying, don't go into education. Because we we are sometimes discrediting our own education by saying, Don't go into education. Education is the best field in the world, it molds any and everything that this world does. It's the most powerful job in America, it's the most powerful job in the world, right? Like who would want to be an educator?

SPEAKER_01:

Has that power of multiplication, right? And just like that woman who gave you that business card that you had, and she said, Oh, I got a job for you. As we close, I always close with three rapid fire questions. Something that has made you smile big this week.

SPEAKER_00:

Our family. I feel really blessed. I fan every time I think this week, I thought about our family, just my wife and our two kids. And we it's full circle because our daughter was born here. We now live in the Richmond area, right outside of Richmond, Virginia. And our daughter, we came here when we first got married, we built our first home here, and 20 years later, we're back into the same area. Not necessarily in the same city, but close to the same area, and it's full circle, and I feel extremely blessed. That makes me smile. And I thought about that this week.

SPEAKER_01:

And you're going into your 20, 25 years since you started an education.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, since I started in education. 30 years out of, I just had my 30th high school reunion. Which is great.

SPEAKER_01:

Not me, you. You told us what you were born. So I mean you set yourself up for that one. Something that keeps you up at night.

SPEAKER_00:

Something that keeps me up at night. Wow, this the state of this country. The state of this country. Right now, we are we are we're at a significant crossroads. But I also it keeps me up at night, but I also know there's hope because I stay in tune to our history. And I think of as African Americans and as Africans who were first brought to this country, right? Unwillingly brought to this country and work for free. We have overcome so much that this too show patterns. I still have hope because we we've been in worse situations than this.

SPEAKER_01:

I I I hear that a lot. Um and last question as we close, what is your North Star in this work? The guiding principle that keeps moving you forward?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I mean, it goes back to my VIP acronym, Vision, Integrity, Passion, right? I mean, that is probably my North Star. I think if I ever lose one of those things, my work is done. And it's funny because my wife, she is talking about she's retiring, this semi-retirement when she turns 50, right? Which is next year. And I don't see that on the horizons for me. I see me always doing work, this kind of work. I still, I still see me being at Howard as a professor and them telling, Dr. Hutchins, you need to retire. You need to move on, right? And I can see me still saying, I want a young person to come in and teach the class, but I want to be an advisor to somebody, right? And share my story and share what I've learned from all these different generations because working with next generation leaders keeps you in the moment and keeps you present and it keeps me alive. So VIP is what's in our North Star.

SPEAKER_01:

Love it. Thank you so much, Dr. Gregory C. Hutchins Jr., founder and CEO of Revolutionary Ed Hutchins and Associates, and author of Getting Into Good Trouble at School, a guide to building an anti racist school system. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. I'm so proud of you too, Dr. Waters. Thank you for me and all that you're doing. I want to give you your flowers when we're here.

SPEAKER_01:

I appreciate that. Thank you so much.